So no spoilers when I go to bed, and 10 hours later Mangahelpers has a shit tonne. So anyway, onto the spoilers.

This one is unconfirmed but given the ease Yamato supresses Kyubi I reckon it's probably not true. Also, it's pretty boring:


Here's a nice little picture. Looks like Pain throws something towards Naruto:


And some more text, and the real kicker:


Is it true, does it really happen?! Bout bloody time if you ask me.

Yup, Naruto hitting 8-tails, and the 4th Hokage walking out of Kyubi's prison. Finally.

Naruto needs to see a psychiatrist; he's got way too many people appearing inside his head. :|

The first spoiler text with Yamato has been confirmed as fake. Picture is legit obviously.

The 4th obviously didn't leave much in the way of the details of his jutsu to Sarutobi. He seems to have kept his spirit from being utterly screwed in the belly of the death god thing.

wow. nice. I can't wait to see 8-tails. And I am a little surprised that Pain managed to "capture" or "defeat" the 6-tails. Not surprising given the way the plot is going, but very surprising in that the 6-tails should be pretty freaking powerful. Unless pain had some special jutsu that owns kyuubi specifically, I am crying foul on this one.

He probably has some kind of "Supress any amount of chakara in a nice bubble no jutsu" jutsu.

I never understood why Sarutobi claimed the jutsu he tried using on Orochimaru was the one the fourth used on the Kyuubi. If it had been the same, both he and the Kyuubi would have found their way to the death god's belly. Instead, they ended in Naruto's. It is a similar seal that appeared on Sarutobi's belly after the death god's hand went through that is on Naruto's own belly though. I think?

Still, I'm surprised that, just as in the Kakashi gaiden, I still get annoyed from the fourth's presence (I don't mean the fact that he appears, but his attitude, expression and speech).

Here's to hoping that we'll get actual explanations on matters we care about.

But I can't make any sense of Naruto. He claims he doesn't want to rely on the Kyuubi, but he's the one trying to rip off the seal on it? Is he that out of options?

edit:


It's hard to tell what happens in the spoiler pics, but it looks more like he's encaged Naruto in a giant ball of rock.
I'd speculate he sent concentrated attraction energy (black sphere) so that when it touched Naruto it started attracting stuff around, mostly the ground.

So Yondaime - or at least the Yondaime in Naruto's head - announces that Naruto is his son? Finally. That should've been done years ago. I didn't expect to see 8 tails here, but it isn't too surprising anyway.

I get the feeling that this chapter should be exciting, but this arc has gone on so damn long that I don't think anything could excite me any more. I just want this shit to be over with.

I don't know. I like it. Finally the story is moving towards resolving the whole Kyubi issue.

@Kireato: I was actually going to basically say what you said earlier, but then I didn't bother
Only Sarutobi and the previous Hokages get to suffer horribly forever in the gut of the Death God. Too bad there were no kids around to seal the three Hokages' souls into. That would've been cool.

I was going to say that it seems a bit random and forced at this stage, since it isn't really being tied into anything else like it could be (I think the way Naruto going Kyuubi was triggered in this instance sums it all up, really - it just came out of nowhere)... but I suppose this was the only time to do it really, since Pain is probably the only opponent left for Naruto who can't suppress the Kyuubi power. But I still don't really like the way it's being done.


What is it you don't like?

I mean, I'm not a big fan or anything, but I can't really see much about him that's annoying. I kind of want to hate him, since I don't like the hype and I don't like Naruto, but I just can't find any reason to. He's cool enough. (Not Itachi-level cool, though.)

You'd like me to give you a reason to dislike him?

Honestly, I can't explain it because it's irrational. He looks like a calculating and cold person to me. And once you interpret his speech with that mindset, he just seems really alien.

see I get the opposite impression, that he is overly idealistic (but still irrational) and therefore makes decisions based on his own desires rather than what makes sense. He is, to me the, ultimate bleeding heart liberal.

I'd always thought of the 4th as being a cooler character than Itachi, who is really only as important as he is because of his link to Sasuke.

I believe if more was shown of the 4th it might change people's opinions. I personally hated the 3rd until I saw his fight with Orochimaru...then I loved him. Obviously it's not that doable with the 4th but something close to that might change some things. I don't know.

Hmm time for a flashback from Minato to fill in the gaps for Naruto. After all, with Jiraiya gone and Kakashi, well who knows, the next best person to tell Naruto about his father, is his father.

I'll clarify what I was talking about. It was spontaneous dislike based on looks, not an opinion nor an elaborate impression. And by looks, I mean the character design, not his speech, nor his background.



I never cared about the third, before or after his fight. (I didn't dislike him.)
However, I never understood why that fight is a high point for many. It was horribly boring for me.



Aside from associating coolness with importance, are you saying that the fourth has importance outside of his link with Naruto? He's a background past character and if he's relevant to Naruto's story, then we'll only be learning of it in the next few chapters. (And that's if he becomes more than the Kyuubi use instructor. Jiraiya did say that the fourth expected something odd, so perhaps he knows something he'll tell Naruto. Maybe he'll come off as the super planner of doom from the past who expected all of this, but honestly, it'd be lollerific if he knew too much. ) Itachi on the other hand became the focus of the story, it hardle was just a link.

Or are you talking about importance of the character within the Naruto universe? As in, one is a strong Hokage with innovative jutsus while the other is a genius Uchiha, murderer of his clan. It seems to me they were both well known.

Because up until that fight we are left to just believe that the Hokage is the strongest ninja in the village. I mean, before the 3rd's fight...there was no insight as to the strength of the Hokage. This old man all of a sudden goes toe to toe with Orochimaru, using numerous Jutsu we had never seen and even takes on the 2 previous Hokage which in turn brings more amazing Jutsu. Then the 3rd uses his summon and that brought some interesting fighting.

For me, this fight ranks in easily the top 5 as far as the caliber of fighting. I really don't think anything was over used, seeing the same move over and over until it works as is typical now.

I think a lot of people remember the fight as it was in the anime rather than the manga. It was a lot better in the anime.

That section of the manga was still a high point though, since it also had the climax of Gaara's part in the series, his fight with Sasuke and then Naruto. I think it was a high point more in emotional and dramatic terms than in quality of fighting, though.


Fair enough. I don't like the way he looks either. Blonde spiky hair doesn't really do it for me, and he has a stupid grin (probably not in this chapter though).

the 4th: Very strong and the idealistic kinda goodie. Plus his image of ownage surpasses Itachi. Besides, he came up with jutsu of his own vs. having stupid bloodline jutsu. But then by bias towards intelligence in that area is well known I think.

I had a higher opinion of Itachi when I thought that he may have created awesome jutsu drawing upon the insight the sharingan allows into jutsu, but really, all of his real power came from the sharingan, with no truly worthwhile jutsu of his own.

Chapter's on Chuushin.

I didn't expect Yondaime at all, so it was a nice surprise. I wonder what he's going to be able to tell Naruto that will help him out in this situation.

Well, Pain's jutsu worked as I had derived from seeing the spoiler pics, aka, he throws "concentrated attraction" and it gathers objects around.

And somehow, Pain could compare the strength he used for his jutsu with that of his ancestor...

It's all action, seeing Naruto get controlled by the fox as usual, and at the end, the fourth appears, and go go next week.

@Zsych:

Itachi's power came from his hard training. He trained hard and mastered (and perhaps enhanced) techniques such as shuriken throwing.

As for the sharingan, it is just a tool. We've seen Kakashi's pathetic genjutsu. We've also seen that Itachi could easily do genjutsu without seals. Again, he's trained hard to achieve that level of control.

Furthermore, the mangekyou jutsus are created. Granted, the tool is superior (but then it isn't like the fourth's tool are insignificant either considering how Jiraiya and Naruto are the only other who've managed it. You may as well call that a "bloodline".), but Kakashi's mangekyou didn't come out bundled with Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu. He had to create his weird warp. Itachi might have learned some things from Madara. (And I would assume that the fact Madara was the first mangekyou user and had no pre made jutsu to learn, is the main reason he didn't crush the first in his battles with him.) Sasuke received Amaterasu from Itachi. And perhaps more.

Even knowing that Itachi is a hard worker, it is known that genjutsu is a vector of intelligence. We don't know how he booby trapped Sasuke, or what he did to Naruto, but I don't think anyone taught him that. As such, I'm fairly sure that Itachi is also a technician, and he used the tools that were available to him.

I'm not exactly awed by the fourth either. Rasengan is wanting to create a steam engine, and having the technology to build a machine that can withstand the pressure, while others didn't. His flash involves reverse summoning himself to a piece of paper with a seal on it, something all summon animals could do apparently... But he learned to do it without making seals and quickly. (and not making seals to use a technique is mostly hard work combined with the physical potential of doing it.)

Honestly, the "scientists" in Naruto are relatively realist. Orochimaru's great work involved isolating an enzyme from some animals (snakes and Juugo) and genetically modifying people so that they'd produce it. (Though whatever he did to himself was pretty imaginary. )

Kakashi is probably just unlucky and has an inferior sharingan that doesn't interface well with his body. Practically, we've seen that almost all of the sharingan abilities manifested almost by themselves. Perhaps Itachi had to develop stuff and perhaps not. His tool is vastly more awesome than what most ninja have however, and underneath that, he doesn't have that many abilities that make him far better than most ninja. Sasuke seems to have learned to use the amaterasu fairly easily and almost unintentionally.
Haku... could do super ice jutsu, with no training at all. Heck he probably didn't even want to hurt his parents, but in his emotional state he created those ice spikes that destroyed his house and killed them.

The 4th, seems to have had enough of a hand in managing how the 9-tails would be sealed to be able to appear as a spirit in Naruto's consciousness when needed. This is actually more akin to Orochimaru's accomplishment in creating that inner world for soul transfer, than Itachi's accomplishment of using the mangekyou to create a genjutsu like tsukoyomi.

Edit: Read the scanlation: Naruto hit 9 tails, before ripping off the seal. Nice. And Pain's greatest jutsu was defeated by the 9-tails tearing out of it.

Now, time for a "Naruto, stop being an over-emotional idiot" speech

Pains jutsu was pretty damn lame...though I did like how they alluded to the previous Rinnengan owner making the moon with it.

Overall I thought this chapter was pretty sweet but I think its a little to late. I was surprised to see how gigantic the 8 tails was and all the stuff going on in Naruto's mind world seems like it could be pretty interesting. I'm also looking forward to the upcoming conversation between the two.

Bleach was pretty awesome this week too...good job jump

Sasuke has indeed learned to use Amaterasu with enough ease, but we have no idea what Itachi did to him. Another problem is the sharingan's ability to copy jutsus. Sasuke has the mangekyou and he's seen a jutsu that the mangekyou can use, several times. We can't even tell if it was unintentional since Sasuke didn't comment on his use of it.

As for Kakashi, he's seen Itachi's mangekyou with his own, and has only witnessed tsukiyomi. He somehow accessed his own sharingan's mangekyou and developed a jutsu for it which has no relation to amaterasu or tsukiyomi.

You've already bolded the issue, we can't tell.



Is that anime?
And you are somewhat wrong. Haku "trained", much like a baby "trains" to walk. His bloodline was discovered because he had been using it.

Anyhow, it is clear that those with bloodline have an extra ability with which to fight. For instance, the byakugan is directly a very nice tool. But kaiten and the open palm style based on it don't rely on the doujutsu.



This is where you're clearly wrong. You can be immensely gifted and not do much with your gift. Itachi became strong because he worked hard and hard work would have made him very strong even without his gift. Unlike his peers from his clan, Itachi grew far bigger than what just the sharingan could give him. Seriously, we saw him take down three Uchihas with their sharingan out and we know how much single Uchihas are feared already.



wat
srsly wat
saske raped orochimaru's world with basic sharingan and his genjutsu knowledge
saske appeared in naruto's consciousness and raped kyuubi with basic sharingan and genjutsu knowledge again
(saske also broke tsukiyomi but we don't even know how much itachi resisted against that, but then saske did experience tsukiyomi a lot)

srsly you don't even know anything about how any of this work (nor do i)
wat are you comparing

Itachi's non-Mangekyou abilities seem to get underestimated a lot after his fight with Sasuke, but it was made perfectly clear that he wasn't fighting at full ability. Zetsu said it didn't make sense, because Itachi "should have been much stronger than this". And, I mean, he was cauighing up blood and struggling to see for the whole fight.

Whether he has much skill in creating jutsu, I have no idea. He certainly had intelligence though.

I also agree with Kireato that Yondaime's creations don't seem that impressive any more. For everything he's done, there seem to be better versions out there. Madara's teleportation blows Hiraishin out of the water; Susanoo and two of Pain's bodies have some kind of soul-sucking abilities without the drawbacks, while multiple people can control or subdue the Kyuubi; And Rasengan seems like nothing now, even Konohamaru can use it.

He was young when he died, though, so he would probably have gone on to create better things.

@Kireato: That Sasuke's sharingan could interface with Orochimaru's world was seriously bullshit. All of what we know about the sharingan was being violated(not that that's unusual). And even if Sasuke could disrupt it because of the sharingan, that should not realistically be an equal act to Orochimaru's creation of it. Unfortuantely you're right, since there seems to be no real logic underlying these jutsu, trying to make sense of it is admittedly rather meaningless.
As for Haku... he'd been doing minimal stuff like creating balls of water/snow when his mother stopped him. Coming up with doing something much more complex to his father shouldn't have been possible from there, just as an act of desperation (don't really remember whether it's manga or anime though), unless it was something that didn't take much thought for him to manage (Fine, I'll stop this discussion for now - stupid as it is )

@Woofie: Seems the rasengan has been nerfed. It was perfectly cool when it apparently tore a hole through Kabuto's stomach, and came out the other side. Pain's abilities are interesting, but he has practically the ultimate bloodline from a jutsu perspective. For a normal person, just finding the death god thing should probably have been hard. Admittedly the case of characters who just happened to have the perfect ability to defeat someone else, happens often.

I'm not sure I bought Nagato's planet-no-jutsu (the rocks floating about everywhere really brought the DBZ flashbacks back to life), but 8-tails kyuubi pwnage (that DPS on p13? Too cool ) and Yondy showing up magically in Naruto's head to reveal paternity and purport wisdom? Awesome!

Kishi seems to put so much more effort into drawing Kyuubi spreads than anything else... It was cool though, yeah.

About the actual chapter (I don't think I've said much about it):
- Pain's jutsu wasn't bad, and at least it did kind of fit in with the gravitational theme of his jutsu, but it isn't something that I'd want to think about for too long. >_>
- I hope to god the thing about the moon is just a legend, because if it's true, that's just stupid.
- I didn't expect Naruto to go 9-tails here. I always thought 9 tails would mean the full Kyuubi, but it seems like that isn't the case after all; there's still one more step before a full release.
- Naruto's breakdown seemed kind of pathetic. It's not that he doesn't have good reason, I just don't think it was done very convincingly (which is a common problem with this arc). It also annoys me slightly just how far backwards he's gone. I mean, from this to this in ten chapters... Jesus. I actually sort of slightly liked Naruto for a little while, but it's been completely undone now; he's seeming like the same character as he was 50 chapters ago.
- Not that impressed with Yondaime's appearance so far, but hopefully he'll have some good stuff to say next chapter.

We didn't see 9 tails. We're shown eight tails (count them). Then we're shown Yamato's hand with the 9 indication. Then we're shown Naruto about to pull the seal off. Then we're shown the fourth stopping Naruto and declaring that he appeared when the 8 tails was released.



There was nearly nothing in the manga.
I don't really see what's complex about ice spikes. He could create ice and shape it already.
No, it's the ice mirrors which are real crazy stuff.
I remember how with some water near Zabuza he created an ice mirror near him and reflected himself there to take on the raikiri. It's way better than the fourth's flicker jutsu.



Yeah, you did notice that Naruto has got a mental world too? And how the fourth is saying that it's his consciousness? He totally created that and it's an act of a god among ninjasks. D:

Honestly, it's just a graphical representation of something imaginary. Kishimoto doesn't have a better way of representing those things, but the fact the sharingan raped it hard is pretty much proof that it was just your average consciousness.

Orochimaru has got tons of better reasons to be worshiped. One of them is the whole "I transformed into a giant bundle of snake with poisonous blood". It's pretty insane. And ugly too.

So why did Yamato's hand show 9 before it actually happened?

Maybe to show that Yamato needed to act fast before the full 9-tails was released. Showing what Naruto's already become (unless he's far away) does no good really, he'd need to have some sort of warning beforehand in order to prepare whatever he needs to prepare in order to stop it.

Yeah, I think that it happens as/just before the tails develop.. Naruto came close to the seal, which probably was enough in the 'real world' to alter things enough for the '9' on Yamato's hand to appear.

I don't know. But the same thing happened with the 8 on his hand.
8 sign appears:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/439/12/
No change in Naruto. THEN Yamato comments on it. THEN the eight tails STARTS appearing.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/439/13/
We see the eight tails in its full glory. And the same anticipative thing with 9 happens again.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/439/14-15/
Except on the next page Naruto is stopped, we don't know what his external form looks like and we don't know what Yamato is seeing on his hand.

If you need an explanation, it could be that the ninth tail was forming, that Naruto's power had already gone past the eight tails form and that Yamato's hand round it up. Or maybe Yamato's jutsu has got a bug, can't detect it accurately, doesn't know what the nine tails' full power really is. I mean, I thought the seal he set up was broken. What is he measuring, how distant is he from Naruto and how come whatever he is measuring travels back in time and informs him before it happens.

The simple explanation is that it has nothing to do with the Naruto world but is rather Kishimoto induced because he wants to build up excitement and anticipation in his readers. Like this:

OMG OMG NINE TAILS IS GONNA APPEAR.
HOLYGRAILOFBBQINACANOFICECREAMWITHNUTSITSNOTNINETAILSITSFOUR
THUGLABLAHABUHOFOURTHUSANHPUHAOUSHFOURTH
*heart attack*

The thing Orochimaru created was described as a dimension he had created, and at the time of their fight, Orochimaru was essentially no longer in his body - probably in Sasuke's. The Sharingan is also supposed to need eye contact for its genjutsu and stuff to function properly... they shouldn't work on someone who is already inside your head, in your own body.
With Haku - for one thing, he was doing what amounted to pretty decent chakra manipulation with absolutely no training because of his bloodline, and ice spikes are still a much more complex form along with requiring the manipulation of more water and needing more chakra (although since it didn't happen in the manga, I suppose we could ignore it)

As for the 9-tails. I expect that Naruto is putting out 9 tails now, even if the seal hasn't been removed. The seal may have to be removed for Kyubi to no longer be linked to Naruto (especially with the whole issue of Kyubi possibly dying if Naruto dies - which should be imminent considering he was screwed with just 4 tails). I think the issue with part of Kyubi's power still being sealed elsewhere is probably a problem stopping the full release of Kyubi's power. It'd be funny to have Naruto act to disrupt Madara's genjutsu on a fully powered Kyubi at some later point - leading to Kyubi eating him(destroying all of his defences with massive chakra of course)

Personally, I'm pleased that Naruto has hit 9 tails. It implies that things are moving forward. I don't know what the 4th can really do at this point. I wouldn't expect him to know much about handling the Kyubi from a jinchuuriki perspective. I doubt he's going to be teaching jutsu either.

As fpr Naruto's wanting someone else to give him the answers because he's too much of a moron to use his own brain to try to find a solution... pathetic. Of course, that he accepted Kyubi's solution is just plain awesome!

Ya, I'd kind of see it as being like an earthquake. Yamato's hand sensed the initial "tremors", but the full scale earthquake didn't actually end up occurring.

Orochimaru said that this alternate dimension he created is inside himself.

And Orochimaru "creates" lots of things. He "created" the curse seal. We've seen how Naruto's "consciousness" is a place of its own (with the Kyuubi behind a gate and leaking pipes all over the place...). We've seen Jiraiya stitch various pieces of reality together without breaking it (hey, now you're in a frog's stomach) and how frogs could hide armories within themselves. (Or Orochimaru a sword in his body.)



Well you just have to take a look at the last in reality scene and imagine that Sasuke had already taken control right there and then.
But that would mean crazy shenanigans. It's just easier to accept that Sasuke was transported whole into Orochimaru's dimension, that is, with his sharingan.

This chapter made me want to read the next one. Nuff said.

/agree
Also, Kireato, that is definately a hilarious sig pic. Something I had to comment on for my first post.

well hello, *kicks halfdemonself to the fresh meat section*

I found it on deviant art. (I didn't pay much attention to who was the author though, I just searched for Suigetsu pics.)
Of course, you find all kinds of... pictures... there...